Rethinking UK Housing with Jason Hardman (CBRE)

00:03
Jessica: Jason, thank you so much for coming on the Pillow Talk Sessions podcast. It is really good to see you again and to have you as a guest, so thank you for that. Before we get into the nub of our questions and our conversation today, I’d love it if you could give us an introduction to yourself, CBRE, and your role there as well. So, over to you, Jason.

00:27
Jason: Yeah, of course. Thank you. So I’m Jason Hardman. I’m an Executive Director at CBRE. My role is Head of UK Living for the UK advisory business.

What that means is that I work across all of our lines of business and services within the UK, working with clients to help them find solutions across all of the subsectors. That ranges from student to single-family housing to strategic land, so really the whole living spectrum.

That includes our capital markets activities, valuations, sales and leasing, and planning. So it is a very broad remit. But my principal role is to help the business grow and, of course, help our clients find solutions as we do that.

01:33
Jessica: Brilliant. Thank you, Jason. That is a big role and it is an exciting time to be in the industry as well, and to be part of it. We are really interested in hearing some of your thoughts today across the whole of living, so thank you again for coming on.

01:51
Kristian: Yeah, absolutely. I have to agree with Jessica there. We have a lot of really interesting topics for you today and I think we should just kick off with the first one.

The first topic we want to discuss is evolving housing models. We have just come back from the ARL annual conference and there was lots of different talk going on. As we know, the living sector is experiencing its biggest structural changes in decades.

From your point of view, what shifts are the most urgent to move beyond outdated “box building” approaches and create housing that reflects how the next generation wants to live?

02:28
Jason: Well, that is a great question to start with. The housing sector is certainly evolving, but it is also a bit like a big oil tanker. It moves slowly.

When I think about this, I tend to go back a generation or so, say 40 years, and look at how people lived their lives in terms of housing. You could break adult life down into some relatively small segments.

There is the pre-family phase, where you come out of education. Then perhaps the “box” bit that you are talking about, which is the family phase. Then you have the later phase of life, when your offspring, if you have them, have flown the nest, or you are retiring and you are in that post-work part of life.

03:35
To my mind, the way we have historically approached housing should really reflect how those phases of our lives have evolved. Now that we are sitting in 2025, I am not sure our approach to housing has evolved at the same pace.

If you wind the clock back 40 years, we had about half the number of renters we have today. Home ownership was more dominant. We have also now got more people going to university, so more people are going into PBSA, living independently for longer before they start a family. We have more households overall.

Then you get into the “box” bit of family living. Of course, that will remain a key part of the housing market. After that, we are living longer. When people become empty nesters or move into life after work, that period is much longer and they are generally healthier and more independent.

04:46
So I think housing needs to reflect that change in structure. Over the last 20 years, for example, we have seen more housing for students. That is probably the most mature part of the living-sector investment market. Purpose-built student accommodation has become a key part of it and is relatively mature now.

But I am not sure that our policies cater adequately for it. There is lots of support for students in certain towns and cities, but not everyone likes students. We know students sometimes behave in particular ways. At the same time, they bring a significant amount to local economies, and planning for that appropriately is important.

You would have heard at the ARL conference about things like co-living or micro-living.

07:00
It kind of does not matter what you call it. Historically, a rite of passage for many people was sharing houses with friends. That is now quite a challenge, particularly in places such as London where rental housing stock is disappearing for all sorts of reasons. I am sure we can come on to talk about those.

People still want to live together. They want to be together. Young people generally want to be sociable, so we need to support and recognise that.

07:42
It is quite interesting that in the paper that came out a couple of weeks ago about accelerating development in London and changes to policy, there was no mention of co-living. In fact, co-living was specifically excluded from some of the measures, like potentially lowering affordable housing requirements. I know it is all subject to consultation and maybe that will change.

More broadly, we have a higher proportion of renters. We should make sure that is a recognised part of policy. It has been supported to a greater degree over the last 10 years, but there is still relatively low understanding from a political or planning perspective.

“Box building”, to use your term, is really that family housing piece. That is still going to be the biggest share of the housing market, so it retains its importance.

08:32
Then we get to the later life stage, when people have more free time and independence but do not want such a big house or “box”, to use your terminology. Where do they go?

That part of the market is the nut everyone is trying to crack: providing integrated communities or better and different types of housing products for older parts of the population.

09:26
Jessica: Thank you, Jason. That is a really great overview. I have a question for you. Is there a particular sector within living that you are most excited about in terms of growth potential? And which one do you think institutional capital is most excited about or most keen to be part of?

10:17
Jason: I think it has gone in waves. There are many parts of the living sector, or places where people live, that institutional capital wants to contribute to. Affordable housing, absolutely, and I will put that to one side just for a second.

What we are seeing at the moment is a lot of institutional capital buying houses. That is an easier thing to do at present because they are easier to build and lower risk to let. You can do them one house at a time.

11:26
I think that is really exciting at the moment. When sales rates for new homes are relatively slow compared to historical levels, investors buying houses, which we tend to call single-family housing, can really accelerate the rate of development, particularly on larger schemes.

In terms of helping the government meet its aims to increase housebuilding, that is currently playing a very key part.

12:14
Kristian: So, Jason, the next thing we wanted to talk about is government targets and housing quality. The UK government’s pledge of 1.5 million new homes has raised questions about quality and location. How should policymakers and developers balance delivery targets with the need for sustainable, high-standard urban living?

12:35
Jason: The challenge of 1.5 million homes is obviously the need to move quickly. That is a big ask for a single parliament.

On the quality point, I think we probably have, with legislation around building safety and changes in building regulations and design in recent years, the framework for the highest standards we have ever had. The challenge is making sure that is hard-wired into planning, because the building regulatory environment and planning do not necessarily run in parallel.

13:50
There is also an adjustment period for the housebuilding sector to adapt to new regulations. There will always be a lag between new regulations coming in and the new product coming out that fully reflects them.

We have seen, particularly in single-family housing, that institutional capital is driving higher standards, especially around sustainability and EPC ratings. Investors are demanding ever-higher standards.

15:14
There is still an education piece for consumers. There is a mismatch between value and cost, with customers not always fully valuing or attributing value to the costs associated with achieving better sustainability outcomes. So there is a balance there, which is challenging at the moment.

15:23
Jessica: On these targets the government has set, where does regeneration and reuse of existing properties and schemes fit in? Is there a way to make sure design and sustainability are still prioritised if we go down regeneration routes?

15:50
Jason: I think regeneration of existing places is absolutely critical. We have not really seen large-scale development in many town and city centres since post-GFC, because it has been challenging from an economic perspective.

What does regeneration bring to town centres? It brings activity, GDP, and a much better environment. It attracts commercial and retail occupiers, restaurants, and leisure.

17:00
So if the question is whether we should think beyond just greenfield sites, urban extensions, and new towns, then yes. Urban renewal is, to my mind, absolutely critical.

17:00
Kristian: With new regulations putting residents at the centre, how do you see the Renters Reform Bill reshaping landlord-tenant relationships compared to past legislation? And what kind of opportunities does it create for operators to differentiate?

17:15
Jason: It is the most significant piece of legislation, and therefore change, to the landlord-tenant relationship in housing since the 1988 Housing Act. It is really important. There are opportunities and there are challenges, but it is a lot of change.

One of the impacts is raising the barriers to entry for landlords. Alongside fiscal and financial measures, the standards landlords now have to meet can only be a good thing. It means providing good quality housing and a fair deal for renters.

18:21
From an institutional or professional landlord’s perspective, that creates opportunities. They should, in theory, be well placed to meet those standards. We will see how it plays out in practice, but it ought to mean tenants are attracted to those professionally managed products and move away from lower-quality stock.

There will, of course, be operational challenges. For example, the end of fixed-term tenancies and a move to periodic tenancies.

19:25
There has to be a balance. Landlords are there to provide good-quality housing, but they are not doing it for free. The regulatory environment must not go so far that it becomes too onerous and puts institutional capital off. I do not think that is likely, but it is something to watch.

20:08
There are also issues like managing rent increases on an annual basis. That will require careful handling. Overall though, I think it is a positive development. We want to maintain high standards within our rental stock in the UK.

20:34
Jessica: Thank you, Jason. That brings us to a topic we talk about quite a bit on this podcast, which is the hotelization of the living sectors.

By that we mean how a customer-centred approach that you typically see in the hotel sector is infiltrating the living sectors. It is definitely talked about. Whether we see it in practice as much is another question.

What are your thoughts on hotelization, that experience-led, service-led provision of housing? Are we really seeing it? Is it adding value? Is it a high priority, or are there other things that are more of a priority, especially in the context of the Renters Reform Bill?

21:33
Jason: There has been a lot of noise around this. When we first started with the professionalisation of the rental sector, there was a lot of focus on amenities: gyms, swimming pools, running tracks on roofs and so on. To me, that is not really what hotelization is about.

Ultimately, it is about service. Hotels span a broad spectrum. You can have luxury five- or six-star hotels with swimming pools, 24-hour concierge and very high service levels, where you really want for nothing.

22:42
There is a place for that and there will be demand from a proportion of the renter population. But that is a relatively small segment.

For the larger share of the market, it is much more akin to the budget end of the hotel spectrum. That is where the comparison is helpful. People want somewhere safe and warm where, if something breaks, it gets fixed. If they have a problem, they know who to ask.

23:42
It does not necessarily have to be about belonging to a community or having a gym in the same building, although that can be attractive for some. The core is raising standards.

The hotel comparison is fair in that sense, but it does not mean everyone should expect four- or five-star service. You still get what you pay for. What we should have is a clear minimum standard. It is clean, it gets fixed, it is safe and it is warm.

24:43
Kristian: And on top of that, I wonder what your view is on how technology can play a role in all that service-driven piece we are discussing. How big a role does tech play?

24:55
Jason: I think tech is incredibly important. We are privileged in that we get lots of data, particularly from our valuation work. When we look at the breakdown of operational costs, the biggest cost is almost always people. Salaries and staff costs.

At a time when there are new regulations to get to grips with, higher-than-average inflation, national insurance costs and so on, the ability to use tech around management is vital.

25:42
Using AI or bots to diagnose what the problem is and then put it into a system to get someone out there, rather than having a human doing all of that manually, is really important. It helps speed things up.

In some of the things I have seen, it is sometimes the human element that lets the service or management down, that creates a weak link in the chain. I am not saying tech is foolproof, but it can take some of that risk out.

26:33
So tech is absolutely going to help speed up responses when things go wrong, give people answers, and give them confidence that they are in a safe environment where someone is looking out for them. Even if there is not always a physical person on site, the system still makes them feel looked after.

27:16
Jessica: Moving on to challenges. We know investors are typically okay with lower returns as long as there is high security. But living sectors and concepts demand innovation and flexibility.

How can operators and capital providers adapt to de-risk some of these models while still maintaining innovation in the sector?

27:48
Jason: I think from an investment perspective, some of the innovation has actually come from that side.

If you look at single-family housing again, we have seen investors adopt technology created by companies like Octopus around “zero bills”. I can think of investors who have put money into modern methods of construction. I am not talking about modular specifically, because we have seen some spectacular failures there. I mean changing how we build and insulate buildings with different types of materials.

28:56
So yes, it is challenging, but it is not that it is not happening. There are different pools of capital for different things. The government has a huge role to play, as do organisations like Homes England and, in future, the National Housing Bank when it is up and running.

It is not just about funding. It is also about helping accelerate technology by enabling people to get on site faster. There is obviously a skills gap as well.

I think innovation is happening, but these behaviours need to be recognised and encouraged.

30:04
Kristian: How do you think investors can better evaluate risk in emerging living models like co-living or senior rental, where the data and precedent are limited?

30:13
Jason: The data is limited, but it does exist. Our experience of co-living is that occupational demand is really strong where the product is in the right locations. In London, for example, these schemes have often performed better than some other rental living formats.

If you think about how some parts of the market have accelerated and others have not, purpose-built student accommodation is a good example. While I said earlier it probably needs more formal recognition in some local planning policies, in the early days the fact that it did not have its own clear use class actually worked in its favour. It had a slightly freer run from a planning perspective.

31:13
With co-living, the jury is still out on the right planning use class. Is it sui generis? Is it C1, like a hostel? Investors want certainty. Providing clarity on that, and including these models in things like the GLA’s potential temporary measures to accelerate housing delivery in London, is important.

They need to recognise that new models have a specific role to play in housing supply.

32:01
At the moment, when people hear “1.5 million homes”, they tend to think in terms of 1.5 million “boxes”. Instead, we should be breaking that down. How much of that is senior living or later living? How much is co-living? Does a co-living unit count as a home in that target?

32:54
I think clarity on questions like that is an important part of providing security and a level playing field for investors.

33:08
Kristian: That is great. There is a lot of interesting activity in the living sector, especially in the UK. I have one more question for you, Jason, before we wrap up today’s episode.

Is there anything coming down the line from you and the team at CBRE that our audience should look out for?

33:26
Jason: I think what we are trying very hard to do as a business, and something we feel passionate about, is fostering private and public partnerships.

A big part of that is not just local authorities’ day-to-day finances, which we know are challenging. A lot of my colleagues are knee-deep in the local government pension fund reform, working out how pension pots are going to be consolidated.

We have also been working with organisations like Greater Manchester Pension Fund to find local housing solutions and support local development.

34:35
I think that is going to be a key part of ensuring we build as many new homes as possible in the right places and of the right type over future years. I do not think it is necessarily about local authorities going back to building council homes directly.

But local authority pension schemes, going back to your point, Jessica, want modest returns and secure income streams. Providing low-cost housing can achieve that. We need to be quite innovative about what that means locally, and how local authority pension schemes can be part of the solution to the funding gap, or the private sector contribution that is required.

35:45
Jessica: It is so interesting, and complex as well. Jason, thank you very much for helping to “un-complex” it for us today on the show. Thank you so much for joining us on Pillow Talk Sessions. It has been really good to have you on.

36:03
Jason: That is great. Thank you very much for having me.

36:06
Kristian: And that wraps it up for today’s episode of Pillow Talk Sessions. Thank you so much for joining us.

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