Driving Building Performance with Jonathan Burridge (Utopi)

SPEAKER_01 0:03

Welcome back to Pillow Talk Sessions. I'm Kristen Lepinsky, joined as always by my co-host Jessica Gilgen.

SPEAKER_02 0:09

Thank you, Christian. And today on Pillow Talk Sessions, we're joined by Jonathan Burridge, who is the founder and CEO at Utopi, which is a company making building performance simple by helping operators decarbonize multi-tenant real estate through smarter data automation and also resident empowerment.

SPEAKER_01 0:30

We'll also be exploring how Utopia's Impact Toolkit is reshaping the resident experience, delivering measurable return of investment, and accelerating sustainability across student accommodation, filter eggs, and potentially hospitality.

SPEAKER_02 0:43

Thank you, Jonathan. Thank you so much for joining Pillow Talk. Really looking forward to this conversation with you. But before we sort of get into the nub of the discussion and our conversation, can you give our audience who may not know you already an overview of Utopia, the value that you bring to the market and to your customers, and then a little bit of a background about yourself and how you got into doing what you do?

SPEAKER_00 1:10

Yeah, so first of all, Jessica, thank you so much for inviting me on the show. It's a real pleasure to be here with you today and the audience. So yeah, so I'm Jonathan, I'm the CEO and the founder of Utopia. So a little while back in 2019, we hatched a plan to start a new uh venture in the building technology space. So Prop Tech, as we probably didn't even know it was called that at the time because we all came out of a tech background, actually. And real estate for us at the time was still a new thing. Um, and really the intention was set from then, which was around helping asset owners and operators reduce um you know cost and create efficiency and make safer buildings using technology, really. Um now the journey, like any startup, has been um very much uh one of um iteration. So we've been you know increasing the kind of value that we bring to the market and improving our product every or it feels like every week actually, but it's probably certainly been uh every year. And uh the journey really got got off the ground, I guess, in 2021 when we discovered uh ESG was a new challenge for real estate that that needed really technology to help um resolve that issue, so uh or at least be a contributing part to the the kind of solution around uh ESG, and and I guess fundamentally the road to net zero carbon and doing the right thing by our people. Um, so we've been working really hard in trying to understand how um this sector can adopt technology and what kind of technology needs to be built and you know building to that need with a really narrow focus, and we've been doing that for you know three and a half or so years now, um, and that's helped us get to where we are today. So it's really about helping um the asset managers and the operational teams in primarily um student housing um but also other residential um you know sort of environments, um, helping them um use technology to improve the performance and you know, and help them manage through the process around net zero transition and all the compliance and safety-related issues that come with that. So, um so yeah, that's that's kind of what we do. And we've been very lucky to have um been adopted by the industry uh quite broadly. So we work actually with most of the student housing operators now in in one form or another uh in the UK, which is where we're spending most of our time these days. Um as a result, we're able to um work with them to deliver an ROI and then also be able to case study those ROIs and you know use those to help us you know elevate the conversation with the wider sector. So yeah, we've we've we've been showing over the last two and a half, three years, I would say, um, the value in the product through energy savings. Um, there's a lot more value to that, obviously. I mean, it's right to look at the NOI impact of a product like ours, but ultimately there's also strategic value when it comes to refinancing and trading assets that's attached to having a green building, which we're helping them, you know, build. So a bit of a long-winded uh answer. Uh a little bit about me, just really briefly. So I've spent you know 25 uh probably more years now, actually helping customers get access to technology and use it in useful ways in various different businesses that I've been involved in. Um I've always had a customer-centric approach, always been focused on you know a win-win deal uh related environment, and that's kind of my background. And along the way, I've met some amazing people. Um, and thankfully a number of them have joined us on the journey we're on now, and that's helping us you know build a great product and hopefully a great business uh to serve the sector.

SPEAKER_02 4:30

Brilliant. And why I'm curious to know why you started in student, like it feels like the obvious, you know, having students as children, you know, my myself, they kind of you know, crank the heating up, throw the windows open, wear shorts and t-shirt even in the middle of February, like that kind of thing. Like, is it like what what what is it about student that is particularly like you've done so well in basically?

SPEAKER_00 4:57

I mean, we we didn't start here actually. This is where we've ended up. I think we started we started in build to rent, um, and we were working and have got and continued to work with Moda Living, who are one of our kind of anchor clients. That took us into a conversation with Harrison Street Real Estate, their their partner, um, and they then adopted us across their portfolio, which included lots of student housing. And as soon as we got the data set from these assets, back in the it was actually the winter between 2021, so September 21 through to March 22, we deployed our tech in about 12 buildings across the UK, one in Spain as well, and we were able to see the huge variance in consumption at a room level, you know, even when the kind of base characteristics were the same. So, you know, a studio with X number of square feet, with X number of students, with X number of days occupied. So a really good data set to do a comparison comparison around. We found that there was like a 1400% discrepancy in just 11 apartments in one building. So we're like, okay, there's definitely something wrong here. There's something we can do to help. So is it education? Is it system related? Is it you know operator engagement? It turned out to be all three of those actually. Over time, we've kind of iterated into the solution that resolves all three. Um, but yeah, that was the I think that trigger point. And then, you know, frankly, it feels a little bit underserved by the tech space. So prop tech has been, you know, prolific. Um, lots of investment going into this space probably over the last decade or even longer. Um, and a lot of the focus has been on office, you know, and smart building tech, and and rightly so, because there's lots of great use cases there, but it's quite crowded, it's quite noisy, and there's lots of point solutions that have been developed over time. But we felt that actually student housing hadn't been addressed in the same way, and we could see a need, and we've just you know doubled down our focus on that. And it's helped us build a product that's now applicable to other types of buildings, like hotels, for example, which are you know that's in our sites for uh it's on the horizon for us. So um, we still work in build-to-rent single-family housing, we still offer you know great solutions for those uh asset types, but the the primary focus and where we're seeing most of our growth is in student housing, and ultimately the operator pays the bill, right? So if you're saving energy, it's straight to the bottom line, and that's a that's a really powerful uh way of unlocking this type of opportunity.

SPEAKER_02 7:10

So it's great, and I know Christian's gonna come in with a question in a second, but I just want to sort of frame frame something here first. In you talked about you you're looking at hotels as well. So you started at Build to Rent, now it's student, looking at hotels, and one of the things that we talk about on this podcast is the convergence of asset classes, the sort of the kind of the blurring, if you like, of rental living and um hospitality. We also talk about the hotelisation of real estate, how we're looking more as a kind of a service offering, if you like, a customer sort of centric offering within real estate and the rental living sectors moving kind of more towards hospitality. We also talk a lot about how proptech is enabling that, how prop tech is enabling better operations but also better experiences. So um really interested to get your kind of views in those areas. But I know that Christian wants to kind of come in now with with something to sort of kick us off.

SPEAKER_01 8:18

No, no, that's actually that's uh that's a great lead-in, uh, Jessica and Jonathan. Um yeah, a really interesting background, I think that's gonna inform a lot of what we're we're discussing today. Uh and the first topic we're talking about, which Jessica was mentioning, was you know, as as real estate uh continues to adopt this more hospitality-driven mindset, you know, how is technology being you know, helping operators elevate this, you know, customer experience? Uh, and where do you see these biggest opportunities still lie?

SPEAKER_00 8:46

It's a great question. And I think it's probably worth just referencing before we go into the kind of what technologies are available, that there is a distinction between existing assets uh that are standing today and new assets that are being developed and built over the next you know five or ten years. It's much easier to build technology into a new building, or it has been historically much easier because it's part of you know you create a digital blueprint that becomes part of the build programme, and then at PC, hopefully you hand you hand it over a coherent, you know, technology-enabled asset that you can then operate. And I definitely think in hospitality, um, it's certainly from our perspective, it would appear that in the hotel sector specifically, um, that the technology uh is more mature in that space in more modern hotels because there's more extensive use of building management systems, you know, you've got heat and hand cooling generally, um even in northern Europe, um particularly in the newer, more modern hotels. Um, student student housing is a little bit different to that in that there's a lot of legacy. Um, so there's a huge amount of you know existing assets which are from you know very you know good intentions that were built at the point in time, but often what had happened during the construction phase, you know, obviously depending on the macroeconomic conditions, this is also exaggerated often. Um, interest rates and build costs going up, for example. Um, but the builders, the developers are really compelled to try and get to the lowest cost point possible, which means they value engineer out often technology that actually is going to operation would be really helpful, and it's created this kind of vacuum, I think, in the retrofit space where we've got loads of buildings out there that are just without being rude, dumb dumb buildings, yeah, the exact opposite of a smart building.

SPEAKER_02 10:22

Um, and you know, that's I love that dumb building.

SPEAKER_00 10:25

I've got to be really careful about using that language because we talk about dumb panel heaters as well, which obviously that's not the right language, but uh anyway. Um, so you've got lots of buildings out there with limited amount of tech in them in student housing. But what we're also discovering is that actually in some of the legacy hotels, it's similar, you know. You know, obviously there's different levels of hotels, different locations, some are under large groups, some under smaller groups, but there's lots of infrastructure in old buildings that really needs to be upgraded, and that's the big challenge at an infrastructure level within the sector. So, what we're seeing, the similarities between the two, is that that is where regardless of where the bed is, whether it's in a student building or whether it's in a hotel room, if you've got an electric panel heater on the wall that has no sophisticated controls, you're likely to be using too much energy. That's just a it's a feature of the history of the building and how it's been built and used. And because people are not incentivized to use those um facilities, let's call them, the heating system, in an efficient way, they won't use it in an efficient way consciously. So, what do you do as an operator in that situation? And so I've really honed into one issue here, but it's it's reflective across the whole, you know, the whole sector really. Um, that might also might be a radiator, you know, that's connected to a gas boiler. You know, again, how do you how do you deal with that context? So, you know, the retrofit is one thing, and then the future new build is another. Because I think now with the MEP consultants are much more tuned into you know the technologies that are available, they're thinking in a more coherent and consistent way about how to adopt that tech and deliver it into assets to drive you know operational value, people are more much more conscious. Um, so I think the the trends towards you know building management systems and smart controls and you know having an integrated infrastructure in buildings, lots of data, submetering, that kind of thing, that is becoming more of a build standard, although I think there's still some way to go there. Um, so we we kind of we've been addressing both aspects of that. So we deliberately designed our product to overlay into existing assets in the same way that it can be implemented into new in a really cost-effective way. It doesn't have to be deeply integrated into the building. We use wireless technology, for example. Um, we've got long life batteries that we use as well in some devices that mean that you can implement quickly low cost, low friction into those existing assets and start to get some smart control layers in. So, you know, build out that dumb to smart kind of profile, if you like. Um, so an infrastructure at a building level, we're definitely seeing that's the trend. It's kind of how do we retrofit, how do we upgrade, how do we make things smarter and more efficient for the modern world. And you know, the core capital markets are really that's a it's a base requirement now to have buildings that are efficient, that are green, that meet the SFDR Article 8 requirements around you know, um, you know, the characteristics that they they would like to see around things like you know, what are the emissions profile, how we have you got control, have you got a strategy for reduction? So there's a there's a genuine correlation between a bedroom that's consuming lots of energy and an investment fund that's spending billions on portfolios, and it's just trying to you know bridge those two things, which is something we've been working hard on. And then if you can abstract from the asset and think about the experience, this is where I think there's a real opportunity, and it has been, I think you know, digital uh tenant experiences isn't a new thing. Um, I mean, so certainly the length of time we've been in the industry, there's been a strong presence. Um, I think builds to rent have really adopted that at a scale. If you live in an apartment block, you're going to want access to the concierge notice boards, you want to deal with your parcels, you might even want to unlock your doors with a digital tool. So having a having an app on on hand as part of your living experience is also really, really important now. So I guess the trend that we're seeing is more adoption of that. That's moving across from build to rent into student housing. We've you know some of the the higher-end student housing uh student housing um operators, they have you know their own apps, or they've bought third-party apps or whatever. So, what we're trying to help them with is building the bridge between the infrastructure and the data and the resident experience and that integration that we've been working through. Um, we think that's a another trend that's going to become you know more of a kind of a base feature almost in these living environments going forward. So, yeah, so the infrastructure, retrofit, new build, you know, upgrading simple low-cost ways of linking asset performance to asset value. And then, you know, adjacent to that, you've got this overlay of the tenant experience and how we can digitize that and then connect the building to the person that's that's living there. Because ultimately, as I said, the variance in these buildings, the big variable is always the user. It's actually not the system. I mean, the systems help clearly, obviously. Uh they'll narrow the band of consumption on energy performance, for example, but they won't optimize the optimization, comes through the way that you engage. You know, do you do you really need it 23 degrees in your bedroom? Or would 20 be enough? You know, is that warm enough? Could you put a jumper on a pair of socks? You know, that kind of thing. So I'm I'm simplifying, obviously. So, yeah, those are the things that we're seeing. Um, and then obviously, you know, we're now at the cusp of AI in the real estate sector. I think it's AI is not a new thing, obviously, it's been around for some time. We've been using it um internally and part of our product, you know, for lots of reasons we use AI. It's it's we've kind of got three strategies around it. One is how do we build a better product faster, you know, so helping us with efficiency and speed. Two is how do we use it to you know operate the business more efficiently? I mean, I'm regularly logging in and asking questions of large language models and helping it helping me think about things. And then the third thing, which is coming soon, which I'll talk about a bit later, is the the kind of feature side. So, what can we build in the product that leverages AI to increase value? And I think that's still massively untapped, but there's lots of opportunity ahead with AI.

SPEAKER_02 16:02

I need to admit something. So I have a garden office, so I'm sitting in my garden office. There's a bit of a nip in the air this morning as we're recording this. So just before we recorded this, I have those electric heaters that you've just talked about where you can't, you know, it's either boiling hot or not. And I just put it on because it's a bit chilly. I'm gonna have to like it'll be like a sauna in here in a minute. I'm gonna have to open the door. Like it's I'm embarrassed to say this is what I'm doing, but I have got socks on. I did put socks on as well. You know, it's that it is that like I can't I can't sort of um manage the temperature so that it is, you know, the the right amount. But anyway, I just have to sort of admit that to you as you're speaking. I'm like, oh god, I've just done that. But there is there are sort of there are there are three things that that you're talking about here, and and I guess it is the sort of the value that you're bringing to the market. So so one is the the resident tenant experience, so making sure that they're not boiling hot, freezing cold, you know, those things, right? So it's it's that. It's also for the the um investors so that they're making sure that they're they've got their ESG targets and they're they're getting they're doing the things that they need to do because that is the future. The third is a moral thing as well. It is about using energy in um a good way, in a correct way, rather than overconsumption. Is there anything else I'm sort of missing there? Or are those those are sort of like the three kind of core areas of that you're looking at here, basically?

SPEAKER_00 17:48

Yeah, absolutely. So we we actually we have something called the impact toolkit, and you've almost just described it, so that's great that you uh you've kind of assessed that yourself. It's it's pretty obvious. So there's the the ESG reporting capability and alerts and all of the analysis that can be carried out by having you know lots of data about how the building's performing, and be able to benchmark that against other buildings, you know, in the sector, which is something that we've created, a benchmarking tool. We then have the um energy control product, which is about two things comfort and cost reduction. So we want to make the rooms comfortable for the people that are staying in the rooms, you know, whether it's a hotel, whether it's a uh a student housing bedroom, whatever. Um, it's important that they're comfortable, but also you'd see you don't have that you know big spike in temperature and then a big drop in temperature, which is what often is experience with manual controls. And then the third element is around engagement and it's around taking the data and the knowledge, and it's it's actually partially about technology, but it's also about it's also about activation, it's about marketing, it's about campaign-driven activity, which is something a bit different to the product. But they're the three levers that we describe in our portfolio of products, and that's how we've organized them. Um, there's there are other things that we do that we probably don't talk enough about actually. Um, so we've just created a damp and mold index. So the sensor that we put into bedrooms collects data that is really useful in other ways. Um, so that's a new feature that we'll be releasing uh later uh later this year. Um, we've got a Legionella risk index as well, which again it's using data sets that we already capture, and then just doing the analysis, and we've created some algorithms to be able to calculate you know what the risk profile is. So there's more to it that pastoral care, so how how often you know bedrooms are being used and if there's any motion or not. And you know, unfortunately, there is a um there is a real there's a reality around um student um safety and well-being, mental health that we need to also play a role in, and that's something that we're really, really passionate about. So there are lots of value add components, they're like layers of value, but the fundamental value is about making buildings more accessible um to sell and refinance, make it easier to resell and refinance, um, make them more efficient and make the communities more engaged and help them, you know, learn and be edge, you know, and become educated around our impact.

SPEAKER_02 20:03

Yeah, we had Soraya from Needo Living talking about the the mental health and the well-being and how important the building is for that for students. So it's it's a really interesting angle. And I and I actually forgot in my three things that I said, I actually didn't say probably one of the most important was the cost aspect as well, reducing um the cost. And I know in students it's all kind of packaged in, but everyone does have to pay it. Um, you know, it goes into increased rents and uh and those things, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:36

Yeah, also and ultimately it if you think about currency as carbon emissions for every kilowatt hour of gas you save, that's you know that is that is carbon emissions saved straight up. You know, and I know people buy energy green energy contracts and and they're doing the right thing, but there's also a reality to that, which is the grid has a mix of energy providing energy to the buildings at any point in time, and often that isn't green. So the reality is that if we can reduce consumption uh in those areas, um you are having a huge impact on the on the planet as well. And you know, I've lost count of how many um tons of carbon we saved last year, but it was a it was a big number. I probably should have that in my front of mind.

SPEAKER_01 21:15

Um yeah, no, that'd be good uh good data to have as well. Uh you know, that that kind of leads into the next topic, which is you know, this uh asset digitization, you know, it's creating this this these new levels of visibility in building performance. Um and if you're able to present that data to these you know different operators, um, you know, they can take a really good look at what's what's happening within the building. So how how is the shift reshaping you know operational decision making and accountability across student accommodation, especially uh in you know hospitality assets?

SPEAKER_00 21:48

Yeah, that's a really good question. And I think we're still on a journey there actually, because you know if you rewind the clock, you know, three or four years ago, the data just hasn't really been accessible. And it's but it's it's products like ours. And others that are surfacing data and creating the insights, which then creates workflow, and it creates workflow for people who already have operational practices, you know, they already have efficiency challenges and they already have a day job to do. So we're asking we're asking teams who are busy who have got lots of other things to do to do something new. Now, so that that's been a real journey for us learning more about how these assets are managed and trying to be helpful rather than you know an additional thing to do. So and we're still on that journey to be honest. So we've I've got a session today with our UX team to try and accelerate that further because it's really important for us that the insights that can be can be gained from the data that's being surfaced, that someone's doing something with them because it's just data otherwise. And um we've seen really amazing examples of where ops teams on site of in fact, most of our clients, to be honest, because our impact team are so close to them on a day-to-day basis operationally, they they really understand the value in having access to this data. And as I was mentioning, you know, being able to identify things like you know, unoccupied rooms during a changeover, if you capture that information earlier, let's say, for example, you know a room's been unoccupied for 72 hours, um, at let's say at the end of May, the likelihood is that student's not coming back, so it's a good time to get ahead of the cleaning schedule and you can start doing the turnaround on that room and close it off, and then you've banked a room or you know, however many rooms. So that there is an efficiency game, but it has to you have to understand their operational context to then be able to provide the data and insight that supports them. So, and I do and I do think there's work between the technology and the operational teams that still has to be developed. Um, and like I said, we work hard on that that concept as a so it's a frequent thing for us. Um, so I think that's that's definitely been one of the you know the challenges, I would say it's that kind of onboard, yeah, people process technology, the classic, you know, this is how things work, you know, the tech's one element, but you've got to get the people on board and they've got to get the processes working, right? So um, but I do I do see an appetite for that, and because we've been able to um work closely with a number of partners who are happy for us then to case study the things that we've done together, it then showcases the art of the possible, and that actually these things shouldn't be disruptive to your operational practices, they should be additive, they should be helpful. So, yeah, so that I think that in terms of digitization is probably the biggest challenge. It's what do you do to embed the tech into existing processes and make sure that the teams on site are really engaged. Um, and that hasn't, yeah, we've been on a journey there. The first I had to say the first year of our journey, we didn't know that was an issue, frankly. Um, so we had to kind of reset and regroup and really think and take the feedback. And another reason that we narrowed our focus actually was because you can't be an expert in every domain, but you need to be an expert to be able to uncover that challenge and understand it and be able to then build into it from a solution perspective.

SPEAKER_02 24:56

So that's it's a real educational piece doing that, isn't it? And before this call, I was actually on a call with a a research company who was looking, they were actually looking at um hospitality technology, but the the things that we were talking about in the call was around the and and actually, so I think the challenge that you're talking about there is not unique to you, as you know, like that's a whole technology prop tech issue about that education, educating the actual users about you know the benefits of it. So it's kind of a cultural shift, isn't it? It's like making sure that and bringing a team along the journey of why we're doing this and why it's important and how it can, you know, benefit um the operator for doing this. And and and you know, it's not an easy thing to do, but it's definitely, and using case studies is a great way of doing that sort of that educational piece.

SPEAKER_00 25:56

Definitely. We've built like a little book of anecdotes, so we've got I don't know how many slides now in the deck, which is all the examples of where we've been able to create use cases, we've identified outliers, you know, I don't know, things like campaigns that have worked really well in behavioral change, you know, all the way through to finding an ironing service in a cluster kitchen that was being run by you know four really entrepreneurial students, um, but was costing the operator, you know, thousands of pounds a month, never mind the year. So yeah, and I guess you need all of those examples to then be able to highlight the reality of how we can help, you know, identifying toilets that are continuously flushing because the system's not working through our metering solution in bathrooms, you know, towel rails that have been left on because we've been able to monitor the ambient temperature. Tow rails are abstract from everything, usually, in these buildings. So yeah, just things like that. It's it's it really is important that you you have a deep understanding of the sector and then are a bit able to help them go through a digital transformation, really, because that's what we're talking about here. It's transforming operations in a in a much more kind of you know digitized way.

SPEAKER_01 26:58

So I I think we should talk a bit deeper on that, that behavioral change and energy use. You know, uh earlier in in today's today's recording, you were talking about you know, observing these differences in occupant uh energy behavior within these similar units. You know, how can technology and on top of technology, thoughtful design uh encourage more sustainable habits without you know compromising this comfort or experience?

SPEAKER_00 27:24

It's a really good point. Um, and we've we've done this is a journey, right? We're still not at the end of this journey. In fact, we've got some really interesting projects kicking off with one of our uh global student operator partners um in September. We've got actually a number of projects, some in the UK, but this is this is actually going to extend into Spain as well. And what we're doing is taking the data set and putting it into the Resident Engagement app and then using the gamification tech technology, if you like, but techniques really is probably a better way to describe it, to um to then encourage behavioural change at an individual level. We've been really successful actually in schemes at doing that at a scheme level. So we're taking the data, you know, creating a community-led campaign and then a community-led rewards process and using that as a mechanism to change behaviour. That has worked really well. Um, but we think we can become even more um effective and have more of an impact, not just in the short term, because there's a short-term aspect to this, which is around you know, all the time and energy and cost of technology and all that kind of good stuff needs to be recovered somehow. So energy savings do that. But actually, what we're doing is educating young people so that when they leave the student housing environment and then maybe move into a flat or an apartment with their friends and they're paying the bill for energy, then they understand their impact so that they can be more efficient, so they can think more carefully about the things that they do, the way that they interface with the heating and cooling systems, how long they have showers for, how long they use appliances, do they use the window to regulate temperature, all that kind of stuff? We can help educate them through their through their journey within student housing, which I think is a hugely um it's it's a it's a it's a good thing to do, it's a thing that we should be doing because we can, but it also helps the brands in the student housing really lean into the social aspect and and uh you know doing the right thing by people as well as planet. It's it's a combination of both. So um, so yeah, so that we we see that as the as the mechan the best mechanism is if you can get the data into the hands of the people who are needing to be educated and make change, we think that's gonna have the biggest impact. We've had a couple of goes at that already. Um, you know, you've got to be uh I think pragmatic about the fact that you're not gonna get it right first time. We've tried, we built our own app and launched that last um uh last September. Um, frankly, we didn't get the uptake. We felt that and that we stopped, deliberately stopped at that point, and we said, look, we're not gonna carry on. What we're gonna do is interface into existing apps and we'll partner with someone strategically. So we've done that. So we now we can now offer a full resident engagement app through our partners at Spaceflow, through our contracts with our customers. Great integrated solution, but at the same time, it's fully integrated with our data set so that we can then really run these gamifications at a whole building level because you tend to find that the uptake on a on a resident app might be as high as nine like plus ninety percent, whereas we were getting like 35% uptake on on a singular product that just does gamification of energy, which is not enough really to have an impact. So we're gonna continue doing you know having an open an open API approach. So allow anyone to collect their data into any in environment. And we're actually doing that with a with a global partner I mentioned a moment ago. Um, and yeah, that we're but yeah, it's it's it's definitely a journey. But we can see the results are there, and when the students do engage and the young people, you know, the impact is is seen, and I think it's valued by them because you know, frankly, they like we we all want to try and make a positive impact, but we're not we don't really have the tools to do that, whereas we're giving them tools, we're helping them understand how they can be more um you know conscious of the climate and and actually more take more action around that as well. So um, but lots still to do there, I think.

SPEAKER_02 31:00

The gamification to do it at scale, which is what you need to do for a student accommodation, is kind of impossible without technology to do that, right?

SPEAKER_00 31:10

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 31:11

Like, you know, how else what you're gonna do it sort of on a blackboard somewhere, you know, like it it's sort of impossible at scale without technology. It's also such a great way to really show the change or show the impact, I should say. And I know, Jonathan, that you did a really good interview with us on Abode Worldwide, where you talk about the Pizza to Progress campaign that you did. So if anyone's you know listening to this, it's worth going and finding that article because you know that that you go into more depth and also the sort of the real results of it as well, the tangible results of that campaign.

SPEAKER_00 31:48

Yeah, that that I'll just very quickly on that one because I love that. I try not to wheel it out every time, but it's I can't help but be excited about what we achieved there together with the operator. Um, but yeah, we ran a Progress to Pizza average temperature was 24 degrees in the scheme, far too warm during the winter in um uh Canterbury. Um, so we decided that we would communicate that through all of the digital channels that were open with the students, um, including the digital boards and stuff in reception. Um, and then we created a campaign, Progress to Pizza. So if we can reduce the temperature from 24 to 22, then we're gonna reward you with pizza and have a party. And they achieved it within two weeks. It was amazing. And we were sent some t-shirts down and some pizzas and that kind of thing. Um, and they celebrated together, and you know, it was uh you know, just a really, a really great example of what can be achieved at that kind of you know whole scheme level campaign. I mean, that was nearly three years ago, so we've done loads of other stuff since. But that was the that was almost a catalyst to say, yeah, this can work, so we need to then you know continue to work towards how we optimise that. Um, one of our other clients in Built Arrent did something very similar. Um, obviously, it was to the tenants' value in terms of the cost saving because it was their bill, but they um they ran a Grinch campaign um over Christmas, which is actually mode of living, they won't mind me saying, because it's a brilliant campaign. And the energy reduction over the two-week period in Christmas, just by explaining to the the um residents that they could save some money if they turned the heating down whilst they went home at Christmas time, the energy saving was a range between 50 and 75 percent across three schemes, so a huge reduction. It was only over two weeks, but we were able to measure that on a kilowatt hour basis, year on year, and demonstrating the impact. So, what you know, simple but great way of engaging the community, showing that you're helping them with their cost of living, you know, and it was quite fun as well at the same time.

SPEAKER_01 33:34

So that's a that's a good segue to our next topic, which is you know, making the business case for sustainability. There's often uh pressure to justify sustainability initiatives through you know clear financial returns. You know, what strategies or metrics have proven most effective in you know demonstrating this return of investment, you know, from retrofitting to energy efficient upgrades?

SPEAKER_00 33:55

Yeah, so I guess it's all about the ROI, unfortunately. Um, as much as we'd like it to be about more than that, the reality is, and I think we just have to accept this, that um you know, real estate funds are primarily here to make money, and you know, we we need to respect that that and also feed into that. I think there is absolutely uh a passion across the funds that we work with to do the right thing at the same time, but it has to it does have to make financial sense. So we think that the I think I sort of referred to this earlier, but the the way to unlock and the thing that we focused on is number one, save enough money to pay for the thing that you're installing through energy cost saving. That's it, start there. If you can save money on energy cost saving, you've unlocked the opportunity to then access all this additional value. I think what we're also now seeing, which is quite helpful, um, is that when transactions are happening, there's a green premium or certainly a brown discount probably attached to assets when trading or refinancing. So, you know, if you've got the right characteristics in your building and you can demonstrate that you've got control over your energy spend, carbon emissions, and that you've got you know some kind of strategy in place, and utopi can reflect those those kind of characteristics. Um, then when you go to you know seek bank debt, you might get you know a green loan rather than a traditional loan, might save you you know 20 to 50 basis points or something. So there's a there's an unlock there, an opportunity there. Also, if you're going to trade your assets at the point of disposal, being able to you know market a digitally enabled green portfolio will attract a different group of buyers, those that have got deeper pockets who might pay more money. Um, and I think that's also really important as well, because we have moved, I think, certainly in certainly from where I'm sitting anyway, for the last 18 months, I would say it looks like there's more core capital coming in who have a higher threshold around DSG into student housing, this is, um, you know, because of SFDR article eight funds, they're thinking about green credentials and they don't really want to upgrade, so they want to buy assets that are just performing really well, that are green by default, and they can just operate for the next 20 years or whatever. So being ready for that is also another reason to make that investment. So, and I think the the investment in the technology needs to be modest and sensible, it needs to fit in the context of the of the asset type. And that was again early learning for us in Resi. You know, NOI pressure is such an important factor. Um, you know, so you need to make sure that your commercial model fits within the context of the market that you are selling to, because you know, five years ago this didn't exist, so we had to create something from nothing. And um, I still think we're getting that at 90% right, but there's work for us to do there as well.

SPEAKER_02 36:33

Are there any other metrics that you would look at? So maybe it's around, especially maybe in Resi, sort of like tenant retention, you know, so make it and and or and attracting particular tenants that are really attracted to being within a green building or a smart building. So so any sort of other metrics that you would look at rather than just the sort of the reduction of the cost and the fact that it's maybe easier to get the the investors involved.

SPEAKER_00 37:03

It's a good question, and I and I think the the truth is there are a number of studies, and I think it's fair to say that people would prefer to live in a green digitised building. Um, a good example of that would be the MIT GLL study that was carried out in the States, it's a few years old now, but they basically assessed and came um to the conclusion that consumers would be willing to pay between four and a half and seven and a half percent more on their rent to live in a technology-enabled um building. So whether you know, I think that some time has passed since then, and I think there's more um more value now in green alongside tech. So I think from a consumer point of view, people are looking for that now. Um, the challenge, the the the ultimate challenge with that is where is the tangible point at which uh an asset manager who's making a buy-in decision on new technology can attach an investment decision to, and it's really difficult when it's not hard-coded into a PL or it's not, you know, except this is where the challenge lies, which is why we use the currency of NOI impact often more often than not, to be honest. But um, we also saw though in our early stage where we didn't have that kind of real evidence or knowledge of the impact that we could have at an NOI level. We have seen some of our like really early anchor clients taking a view on sustainability as being a strategic imperative for them, their fund, and their long-term strategy. So Harrison Street Real Estate, who we've worked with from pretty much day one, they embedded Utopia into their ESG strategy in 2022, and we've been working with them across everything since. And it there is an ROI element to that, of course, and we're always helping them reduce cost, but for them, it was about getting their strategy right and having a standardized approach to what they do across their portfolio, and they've done that exceptionally well, I think. And we've seen more of that happening. So I do think there's the strategic value of having it's and you know, ESG unfortunately has been tarnished a little bit with you know the political um landscape.

SPEAKER_02 38:59

I was gonna ask about that. Yeah, I mean yeah, I was gonna ask about that and sort of be a bit devil's advocate around you know, our our friends across the pond, you know, there's been a cultural shift there where sustainability and environmental issues have kind of you know, they're they're sort of down the pecking order, shall we say, and there's the kind of the drill baby drill sort of contingent sort of going on. Do you see that as impacting the um desire over here for you know, do you think that will trickle down that we'll see less emphasis on this and less care, perhaps?

SPEAKER_00 39:37

Yeah, I mean, look, it's almost like waves. So the first wave of ESG is like, okay, we've got a new initiative, it's about net zero, it's about doing the right thing by people, and now we're going to be measured on that, and it will have some kind of financial impact. We need to do something. And I think the whole industry ran towards benchmarking at that point, which was through you know, GRESB is the main point of reference for that. We've been working with them since 2021, actually. So the global real estate sustainability benchmark, there's a way that we can all demonstrate that we're doing something around ESG, so that's compliant. I think then the second wave was okay. So now where is the ROI attached to that? Because we've done the compliance thing. This is this felt like a cost rather than, and it's quite a hard thing to do to build the right data to be able to report to GRES to get a good outcome from it, and that's also evolving and getting more difficult to align to and achieve those same outcomes year on year because they're making it, they're trying to push towards that net zero future. So I think that first wave happened, the second wave was about okay, so where's the ROI? Can we really afford this? The politicization then has come into play, and I think that's created a bit of a negative context around the phrase or the acronym ESG, to be fair, to be frank. I think that has had a negative impact on that. But now I think we're into a stage now where if you just put to prepare everything that's happened and what we've done, we still it still makes sense to have buildings that perform well. So if you can get onto a net zero pathway in an efficiency-based approach, which is about reducing your consumption before you invest in you know renewable technologies, and there's there is a CapEx program coming for net zero, but if the first thing you do is reduce your consumption and just get your house in order, it actually just makes good commercial sense. So I think we talk more about performance than we do ESG. I mean, ESG is the context and we're aligned and all the rest of it naturally. Um, and then the other part of it is around risk management. So the risk in not doing this and having a plan is that something changes, whatever that risk is, you know, whether it's the risk of not accessing the green capital that's available, the risk of having a smaller audience when you go to sell, you know, or dispose of your assets, or whether it's the risk that there's some sort of carbon tax or new legislation that's introduced that no one's yet privy to. I think if anything, that risk is higher now because the the uncertainty around the political landscape, and we've seen you know that shift, like you were describing a second ago, Jessica, from you know, you know, from from kind of let's focus on ESG, there's value there to actually who cares? Is climate change even a real thing? You know, we're hearing this sort of stuff, and you think, I mean, God, that where I was on holiday this year, um, there was huge fires uh in the south of France yesterday, and you know, people are losing their homes and lives, and that's just one of I mean a hundred examples probably this year of you know real climate-related um disasters that are happening across the planet. So we've got to do something, you know, and standing still doesn't answer that question. Um, and whether you call it ESG, sustainability, risk management, performance management, it doesn't really matter what you call it. Let's just get our emissions down and let's try and make these buildings more efficient over time.

SPEAKER_01 42:32

No, that's uh I couldn't agree with you more on that. Uh and you can see with technology now and how it um it makes it very clear not only the environmental side of what you're doing, but also the cost and the return on investment. So, you know, all that information's out there and it's it's a very clear indication of why going down this path. Um, the last topic that we're talking about is, you know, as you mentioned, you worked a lot in student accommodation, uh, but also looking into hospitality in the hotel sector. Um, hospitality is increasingly seen as this natural extension of what's worked in student accommodation. You know, what makes this crossover compelling? And, you know, how can lessons from one sector accelerate sustainability and innovation in another?

SPEAKER_00 43:15

Yeah, it's a it's a it's a good question, and I'm not entirely sure that I'm the right person to answer that question, but I'll give you my take on it at least. Because I don't know enough, I would say, being honest, about the hospitality sector tech stack in terms of how it feels more complex, more mature from what I've looked at so far, and there are more systems involved. Um, but if I think about it just from a consumer point of view, we've got there are expectations around how you um, you know, how you go on holiday, how you live, the things that you do, the time that you spend with your family, your friends. And we do like things to be easy. You know, we're we're used to things being easy. I don't know if you guys are on board with the whole Alexa thing at home or smart home automation, but most people are doing something along those lines now. We've we've we're all connected to our phones 24 7. We're using apps to engage with communities, with friends. With our banking, with our you know, so whatever there's lots of things that we use our phone for. It's a kind of key, a key um communication tool. So I think the the expectation is if I'm living in a student uh housing asset, I do want to feel like I'm paying a premium, you know, notionally, probably not really, but notionally, you know, I I would like for that experience to feel like I'm in a hotel because my expectations are high. I want it to be seamless, I want concierge, I want digital community, I want to be able to open my door with a lock, I want to be able to control my bedroom temperature, I would like to have access to you know um amenity spaces, including things like gyms and cinema rooms. I've seen everything, a slide in one of the student accommodation foyers. Um, you know, so you know, they there's an expectation that the the product that they're consuming, the student housing product, feels like frictionless and digitized and enjoyable and easy. And I think that's kind of what we expect when we go on holiday as well. It's not it's not that dissimilar or staying away for work or whatever it might be. So I would say that the the similarity is just what our expectation is, it's the user, it's less about the sector, I think. I might be wrong there, but it's probably more about how people expect things to just work and work easily easily and seamlessly.

SPEAKER_02 45:14

I'd also say about hospitality is that there's so much opportunity because there's so much wastage. You know, there there's you know, heating's on, whether a room's being used, lights are on, like there is a lot of energy consumption within hospitality. So to be able to kind of help operators and owners sort of reduce that cost part, as well as we we know that travelers are wanting, you know, that there is a demand, there is a desire for more sustainable green vacations or holidays or places to stay. Um, and at the end of the day, you know, the person that does bear the cost is the is the guest, is the consumer, because of course it has to get added on to the room night prices and things like that. So I think there is huge opportunity, and I know there is already, you know, tech and initiatives within hospitality, whether that's hotels or short-term rentals, to kind of you know look at this, and there are you know prop tech that's already kind of in those sectors. Um, but it is, I'd say, like similar to student, there's an overconsumption of energy, shall we say?

SPEAKER_00 46:25

For sure. And also there's a comfort issue, I think. I mean, I don't know about you, but I was imagining a world where utopia being deployed in a in a building, and I was thinking about how like how in a in a hotel this is, how could I use what we've built to make my experience better? And I was imagining a world where you know, maybe I was going to stay in a hotel and I had I was part of their rewards program. I'm part of a few, so I won't name any names. Um, you know, I'll get a notification sent to my phone asking me what temperature I'd like in my room and what time I would be arriving. You know, that would be amazing. You know, there's nothing worse than arriving at a hotel at eight o'clock at night and it's too hot or too cold, especially if it's too hot because then you've got to go for me. I like it cold at night. Um, so you know, being able to, you know, proactively you know put a request in for the temperature to be set at a temperature point, we could that's part of what we do. We're doing it for one of our build to rent clients today. So that would be really interesting, and then using the performance of that individual as one of the mechanisms to then determine a future discount for a future stay and being able to promote that through um through the same digital channel, it would be a really compelling way of getting people to engage more with direct booking rather than through the agents, potentially, which I know is an objective for um a number of the hotel operators, huge cost, obviously, but also a great way of being able to reward people for being efficient when they live, when they stay in the hotel. I mean, the discounts might be marginal, it might be you know a drinks voucher or it might be sort of a meal voucher, it could be a reduction in the stay, whatever. But being able to measure that and then use the gamification methods. So I have we have visualized the kind of we've got a vision and a product idea around what we can what we can do in the hotel sector. Um, and I can imagine that that would be really quite compelling for an operator to to deploy, but we've just not started that conversation yet with the end users.

SPEAKER_02 48:09

Yeah, I'm glad you said that because you know, being able to then that the impact of reduced usage going on to loyalty points or loyalty programs, like it really is that opportunity for the hoteliers or the hospitality operators to um build the relationship, as you say, the direct relationship, um, where it's a win-win. I'm gonna just have to tell you something. I have just written a book called Tech Enabled Hospitality, and we do do a whole section on sustainability. Or I've written a whole section on sustainability in IoT. You must get a copy. Yes because I think you find it very interesting. I'd love it.

SPEAKER_00 48:47

If you could send me a link to where I can get one, that'd be amazing. I'd love to read that. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 48:51

And I I think that's uh that's a good place to end today's conversation. So we got one more question. Um, you know, besides go check out Jessica's book uh for our listeners as well. Um, is anything coming up at Utopia for our audience, or if they're interested in finding out more, where can they go?

SPEAKER_00 49:06

So, yes, um, I'm not gonna give too much away because I haven't talked to my marketing department about this question because I didn't know that I was gonna be asked it today. Um, but yeah, we've we we're at the class conference in um in November uh in Portugal, and we will be announcing um two significant new initiatives. Um, one is a um our gift back to the industry, and I won't talk any more about it than than that just now. Um, and the other is um some of the um very carefully um uh planned and uh considered approach to AI and how we can increase the value of our product to our customers in using AI. So look, look, watch this space. November, you're gonna be hearing at the class conference about our AI plans, uh, short-term and long term, and also um a new campaign um that we're gonna be introducing as well. So um, yeah, I'm really excited about both. And there is a future um a couple of future projects that sit a bit further out than that around modulisation of our products, which is uh something I won't say any more about just now, but that's for 2026.

SPEAKER_02 50:11

That all sounds brilliant, Jonathan, and thank you for taking the time when you've got so much going on, clearly. Thank you for taking the time to come and talk with us on Pillow Talk Sessions. It's I've really enjoyed this conversation and and learn a lot more as well. So thank you.

SPEAKER_00 50:26

Thanks, Jessica. Thanks, Christian. It's been a real pleasure to be involved, and uh thanks everyone to for listening to this point if you have.

SPEAKER_01 50:33

And that wraps it up for today's episode of Pillow Talk Sessions. Thank you so much for joining us. And to stay connected and never miss a conversation, head over to PillowTalkSessions.com to subscribe. You can also follow us on LinkedIn for more insights and interviews with leaders shaping the future of hospitality, multifamily living, and community-driven spaces. Pillow Talk Sessions is brought to you by Abode Worldwide, the strategic public relations agency for tech brands and tech enabled operators, transforming the way we work, play, and stay. Abode Worldwide creates category leaders and builds brand value across hospitality in modern rental living. Thanks again for tuning in, and we'll see you next time on Pillow Talk Sessions.