Designing the Future of Urban Living with Nuno Jorge Trigo (FEEL GROUP)

SPEAKER_03 0:03

Welcome back to Pill Talk Sessions. I'm Kristen Lepinski, joined as always by my co-host Jessica Gilman.

SPEAKER_01 0:09

Thanks, Kristen. And today we're joined by Nuno Trigo, who is the co-founder and co-CEO of Field Group. We're going to talk about how the company has blended experimental, experiences, possible, and flexible co-working spaces to create a truly hospitality-driven experience.

SPEAKER_03 0:28

We'll also explore the operational shifts required to scale across different living models, how Phil Group is navigating evolving regulations, and what the future holds for vertical hospitality.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

Nuno, thanks so much for joining us on Pillow Talk Sessions. It's an absolute pleasure to have you on the show. And you and I have seen each other at conferences, you know, for many years. It feels sometimes like all the short-term rental and the flex conferences I go to, Nuno is there too. So really kind of excited to be able to have that opportunity to go a little bit deeper on this podcast. So welcome and thank you. But before we kind of kick off on the discussion, perhaps you can give our audience a sort of an overview of Feel Group and yourself to sort of set the scene.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

Okay, thank you, Jessica. Christian, first of all, thank you for the invitation. It's a pleasure to be here with you guys. And uh my name is Nunutriga. I'm the co-founder and the co-CEO of Feel Group, a group that started in 2009 in Porto, Portugal. We started in short-term rental and we are gonna talk about this. But nowadays we think that we are an hospitality group, as an hospitality company. I'm also vice president of the Portuguese Short-Term Rental Association.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

Excellent. And I think the we you know, we can talk a bit about the association because what you guys have done with advocacy with the association is is pretty phenomenal.

SPEAKER_03 1:48

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, welcome to to the podcast. Um I think we should just kick off. And, you know, the first topic that we're talking about is expanding from these short-term rentals to now flex living. You know, as you mentioned, Phil Group started with short-term rentals and has since expanded into this flex living and co-working spaces. You know, uh to start with, what are some key operational and service shifts required to successfully scale across these different models, you know, while still maintaining a strong hospitality experience?

SPEAKER_00 2:16

Yeah, Christian. I think the best way to answer your question is to to make the path of Phil Group since we started in 2009 in Porto. We start in we start with a with a short-term rental traditional model. We used to manage uh isolated apartments in residential buildings in city center, and uh we have an incredible time to market uh because we we don't have that many competitors and we grew a lot, we grew a lot until 2015, 2016, I think. And then we start to have, or in this past, we start to have a lot of challenges that we we must look for. Uh first of all, it's difficult uh to scale, maintaining a good customer service. I think that's the the main point. Where when you have isolated apartments, all the operation is very difficult, and it's very difficult to maintain a good customer service. So that's the the first challenges. Then in these days, in that case, we are always focused on leisure clients, and we want to also to have uh an offer for for uh for business travelers, another type of segments of markets, so that's another challenge that we have. Then we have the difficulty of differentiation from our competitors because at the end we all do the same thing, we all do the the management of of uh isolated apartments. And the last one, of course, was regulation. We are starting in Portugal, we are uh uh uh um almost a base case. We start to talk about regulation in 2014. In 2018, we have we have uh the the first uh registration model. So in 2014, we 1415 we start to to to look at that, look at regulation and the challenges that we're gonna have in the in the in the future. So, what what did uh uh Feel Group do for to try to mitigate that? We start what we call vertical hospitality. And what is vertical hospitality is a 360 offer for the for the client, for the visitors. And so we start, we we open uh uh a new company in 2017 called Field Discovery to the uh countryside uh uh accommodation and experiences. Then we acquire uh a mobility company, our provider from transfers, it e mobility, then we have the mobile the transfer services, and then I have urban accommodation, and then I have countryside accommodation, so three three things. Then an acquire uh a boat trip company, and I put a head-on in the in the in the offer with the with the boat trip experience, and at the end, and the the last one it's 2021. We open, we develop the flex working spacings, the co-working. And I'm saying flex working spaces because it's not only the traditional co-working, and we can talk a little bit more further about that because it's not only co-working, the open space one, but it's uh uh a mix of of things about about the flexible workspaces. And with that, we are able finally we are we were able to to work not only leisure, we can we can work with with business uh companies and always focus on the best customer experience. And I think that's that's the path, the 15 years off path from from Field Group until now to be an hospitality group.

SPEAKER_01 6:00

It's really interesting, Nuno, because you know, I was speaking to someone earlier to today, and they said basically for a business owners, you've just got to constantly innovate. You know, you can never stay still, you've got to constantly be working with challenges and innovating and changing what you're doing. And it feels like you've sort of done that kind of perfectly over that trajectory. And I guess when you started in 2009, I I don't know if Airbnb, was that around the time or was it even before?

SPEAKER_00 6:28

Yeah, they start in 2008, but we only start to work with them in 2014, 13, 14, I think.

SPEAKER_01 6:35

Yeah, so but I think that sort of the the trajectory of short-term rent rentals, vacation rentals has kind of gone a path, hasn't it? Sort of from that time, just in all over the world as a sort of a growth of an of an asset class, and then getting the challenges when more property managers kind of come into a location seeing it as you know as a business they'd like to try as well. But it's really unusual for uh for us to see what you've done, which is diversify that whole hospitality offering. So, with you know, the experiences like buying a boat company, having the tours in in the countryside, the villas in the countryside, so providing your guests with way more than than just a building. That's a that's a pretty unusual trajectory for operators to kind of it's almost like you're becoming a tour operator. Um so um that vertical hospitality is is really interesting, and then of course, going into the the co-working bit. And I'd love us to talk about the co-working a bit, but first, you know, through that diversification that you've done from being a traditional urban property manager to now providing experiences, transport, villas in the country, you know, further and broader. What would you say were the sort of either we could phrase it either the mistakes you made along that or the challenges or what you didn't know before you did it that you found difficult?

SPEAKER_00 8:07

I think that's uh at the general we we we we did the the right things because it's not an easy path, it's not something that you can do in one, two, or three years. You you must create uh the the the different companies from they're almost all of them startups, and it's very difficult to create a startup and to grow and to to have capacity to to make a good job. So I think that we we that's why we we we took uh 15 years until we think that we consolidate the model. It's not something that we have done in, like I said, one or two years. So I think that we we do that really well, and we are we are always improving. So I think that's the challenging now. It's it's it's try to to be a a good operator, also to leisure, also to to to to to business in urban, in it's not easy, but I think that we are doing the things well, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:04

You mentioned um after the first question a bit about our next topic, which I want to dive a little bit deeper into it. You know, we were at Vitter, uh, and this is what they were talking about a lot there, too, was you know, balancing this new regulations that are coming out and being flexible. You know, short-term rental regulations continue to evolve, pushing many operators to diversify their offerings. You know, how can hospitality businesses stay agile while ensuring compliance? And you know, what lessons can be learned from Phil Group's approach to diversification?

SPEAKER_00 9:36

First of all, I think that nowadays we don't consider ourselves as a short-term rental operator. We are an hospitality group. We look a lot for the needs of the customers, not our needs, not only the subsector of short-term rental. And for that, I think that's very important also the directions that you have with local entities. And I can give you some examples. Uh we talk a lot, I talk a lot with with city council. And uh I present before I launch uh a project in Porto, I present the project to the city council. I try to see that if if the the the offer that I'm that I'm preparing, it's good not only to visitors but for residents. And and it's very important the relations that you can have with with this type of entities. Also with the tourism. It's very important for a short-term rental industry that you think that the the industry is very old, and and uh you have people that do very well to the the accommodation. The hotels are very good in what they they do. So I think that we need to be near tourism branch for for and try to follow the strategies of the country, not our own strategies, because it's very important to know if the country is prepared to receive more visitors, if the city is prepared. So I think it's it's it's it's also the network that you are able to do. Even the subsector associations. So, for instance, in Portugal, Alep talks a lot with the association of mobility, with the association of animation and experiences, also with totals. It's very important to share insights and and not think that we are the right part of the equation, then they are the bad ones. No, it's not that. And and with that you can mitigate the risks that you have. You will always have risks in this type of sector because tourism it's also it's almost always a trend. And the leisure tourism, it's uh it's uh almost uh it's it's it's a a strong trend in some times and sometimes no. So it's very important to to to to make the right network and to be open to to lease and also what the other the other uh stakeholders of the industry of the tourism are doing.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

It's such a refreshing approach, and it's not seen you know everywhere, this kind of collaborative um approach that you're talking about there. And and I just want to reflect a little bit on Alep, actually, the the association that you are the is it the chair or the co-chair of no, I'm the vice president.

SPEAKER_00 12:25

Eduardo is the president and uh the face of Alep.

SPEAKER_01 12:29

Honestly, last year watching a presentation that that talked about how you guys had, and you know, in very simple terms, fought and won, basically, against very draconian, kind of unfair regulations in Portugal, was I mean, it was actually really moving how you all sort of came together, almost like what like a grassroots kind of campaign of getting your voices heard, the businesses that that that are impacted, the communities that are impacted positively was was very, I mean, it was incredibly impressive. Um, I I just want to go a little bit deeper into what you said about and basically it's making sure that that offering that you're providing, your hospitality offering, makes sense in the place and the location that you're in. So that you are working with communities and transport providers or whatever it is, that you're not just saying, I want a business, I'm gonna shove it here. You're you're you're thinking mindfully about the impact that it has and um the way that it integrates with the wider community, I guess. And has that always been the way that you've approached things, or is that something that you've kind of learned as you've gone along with Feel Group?

SPEAKER_00 13:46

Yeah, I think that we are always learning, but in our lab, for instance, we always look for a balanced way to a balanced strategy, and that's why we are not against regulation. We are not against the scheme of registration. It's very important to have the scheme of registrations in short-term rental so that you can know how much uh licenses do you have, how if if you have pressure or not, because if you don't have the registrations, if you don't have data, you you are always talking about perceptions, and perceptions or go against perception. It's it's the difficult things that that you have in the world. So in Portugal, uh with the registration scheme, we are able to talk with local entities, with the government, with data, with real data, and that's and that's very important. But at the same time, we always talk in the in the in the in the board member of Alep, that we must be balanced. It's not only to have freedom to open wherever we want in short-term rental. We must look at the city, we must look at the the the capacity that the city have. We are uh um very proud, because we are called to to have meetings with the city council to talk about the regulation, for example, of Porto or Lisbon or Faro. And that's very important to be proactive, to be balanced, and not uh always against they are them against us. That's not the way that we see that. And in Phil Group, we think the same thing. We think we we like to talk to the official entities, we like to ask them if they they agree with this type of project. For instance, the vertical buildings that we have, the the city council loved it because we are not only working or or uh creating offer for visitors but also for residents. And that's very important to talk to these type of entities and and to try to be balanced.

SPEAKER_01 16:01

And what the co-working, the flexible co-working offering that you have, why why has that sort of come about? Is that kind of part of those discussions that you've had, you know, within the community, saying, okay, this is what we need, or or like how has it come about that kind of the co-working offering?

SPEAKER_00 16:20

In the first moment, it was it was something that we think about uh the we want to create an offer for a business travel traveler. So we the the business travel doesn't need only accommodation, need a space to to work, a space to to to to to call someone that's uh uh uh that that they they that he wants to know, they wants to to to negotiate, he wants to present to make presentations. So in the first in the first moment, the the the thing was uh I need to have something different to the business travelers, different than a notal, for instance. But uh after that, we talk a lot with uh again with official entities and we we talk with InvestPorto. Investporto it's a uh um a program or um okay it's also a branch from the city council that that uh tries to to to um to get uh for rate investment in Porto, city center, like a tech hub. And we talk to them and we ask them what are the needs of the city to not only in in uh office spaces but also in accommodation, what are the needs of the city? What type of projects can I make to fit the needs of the the new companies, the new multinationals that are coming to Porto? And that's I think that's the the the the um the strategy that we take to to to this type of project.

SPEAKER_01 17:49

I just before Christian's gonna give uh give Christian a word and edge wise, but I always have to say this it feels like everybody is moving to Portugal or certainly has over the last three years. It's the it's the country, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 18:07

Yeah, the trend now, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:09

Portugal is great and it's a great place uh to work as well, especially when the weather's not so good here uh in other parts of Europe. Uh I I wanted to talk a bit more on the the future of co-working here. Um, as we I I think we can dive a little bit deeper into that subject. You know, how do you see this balance between private offices and open co-working evolving? And, you know, more importantly, you know, what role does hospitality play in shaping the future of these work environments?

SPEAKER_00 18:35

First of all, we try to have the the most flexible work spaces that you can you can imagine. We we um we we try to have uh open space in traditional co-working spaces, we try to have private offices, we try to have uh shared kitchens, laser spaces. Uh but also we always provide accommodation in the building, in the same building of the co-working. And that's why we talk about hospitality, not only a place to work, not only a place to stay, but a place to to live, a place to work, to relax, to make network, to uh and and then at the same time with this type of buildings that we call vertical buildings. Uh, and I can I can tell you guys that the vertical buildings, uh, the the model is uh in the ground floors we have uh uh flexible workspaces with private offices, with the co-working, with open spaces, with uh with shared kitchen, at least 1,000 square meters, okay, because we need uh it's not uh an empty room or a meeting room, it's a co-working space, okay. Then in the in the in the top floors we have service apartments for accommodation, not only for the the business travel, but also for city breaks, and then you can with with the the both communities, the community from from the work and the community from the the accommodation, even the the leisure ones, we can merge both communities and we try to have always a rooftop for events. And and it's in that point, the event point where we merge both communities, not in the in the common areas, the the stairs, but in the event points. And it's it's it's really amazing that we and also the the local the local community. It's amazing when you are able to do, for instance, uh a presentation of a new book, a local writer, with people that comes for a city break and people that works there. It's it's incredible the the combinations that you are able to do and the different type of persons that we can impact in that. So I think that we are not a co-working operator. We are an hospitality group that try to have flexible buildings, and that type of buildings can have for the last one that we have vertical co-working down Eric, we are we have uh accommodation, we have uh open spaces, we have private offices, but we have also a uh work cafe. Uh and the the provider is an external one, and you have the work cafe, you have the shared kitchen if you have if you want to make our own lunch, but you can go to the work cafe. You have a wellness and performance center. You must feel that the the the the building is alive and you have a lot of things happening uh uh all the time, uh during the day with the people that's working, in the evening, people that arrives from from the the tours that they made from the leisure uh events at at the evening, also at night people that are staying there. So I think that's uh that's uh that's something that we are still building. It's not uh a mature. concept we are doing that we have three three vertical buildings in Porto we are opening now two in Sao Paulo and we are also preparing one in Lisbon because and and that's that's our our our we aim to have not the perfect buildings but good buildings flexible ones that people want to to to be there.

SPEAKER_01 22:21

Yeah and and one of the questions I was going to ask is would are you considering or would you consider it consider food and beverage and it sounds like in in one UR kind of working with a partner.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

Yeah but not for our own I I think that we must uh uh make agreements with professional providers from uh it's very difficult that that that's one of the things that we are not uh managing hotels until now is because of food of beverage I think it's very difficult to to to do that yeah and I guess that is if you find the right partner and you've got the right space then yeah yeah for sure but I have a question before we kind of move on and I'm very ignorant about this and and about the Portuguese market here but what what is the sort of the real estate offering?

SPEAKER_01 23:07

Like are you going into old buildings and refitting them out?

SPEAKER_00 23:11

Like is that is that because it feels to me like there is quite a lot of perhaps old buildings in the Portuguese cities that are kind of ripe for being converted yeah in in in the city center in CBD of Porto and Lisbon of course it's all it's always uh uh uh rebuilding we are not able to to to make new construction so we look for that type of projects but I think that nowadays you you you have uh uh development company companies that are looking a lot for that and they are looking also to operators then can bring models like like the the vertical one to this type of buildings not only because it it's not only accommodation it's not only short term rental it's not only OTO it's it's a different concept and I think that's that nowadays it's it's I don't think a trend but but it that's it's something that's it's starting and uh we are talking a lot with uh I think it is the future isn't it it is part of that mixed use developments and things isn't it where you've got different communities using it you know and I know this is more hospitality based but using a place in different ways but using it together. And and even in the financial perspective it's it's easier to to rentabilize every square meter of a building in a model like that where I have the the the ground floor the ground floor it's always a pro a problem to to a notel because in a it's a note a nonprofit uh space and uh and we are able with the with the the the the flexible workspaces we are able to monetize every square meter so I think even for for the the the business plans it's very it's very important to to to this type of models new model yeah yeah for sure um I want to move on to our next next subject which is you know integrating hospitality community and experience you you mentioned a bit of it when you're talking about the vertical hospitality but um you know Phil Group has always placed a strong emphasis on integrating local culture into its spaces through art and events. You know how can hospitality operators create these events that go beyond just uh accommodation or place to stay to fostering these real connections in a sense of belonging ultimately creating loyalty uh to that brand yeah like I said before we try to to to to make a connection with local uh uh local people with local writers local painters uh uh local companies small companies local providers and and I think that's that's that's very important and and I can I can I can uh um share with you guys a program that that Porto the the city council have nowadays that that calls the trust Porto it's a problem where the city council looks at the project not only for sustainability not only for the license but also the impact that you have in the local economy and you have a lot of points that you must fulfill that to to to to to have the the the certification the stamp of what they call uh uh trust buildings or or and and and I think that's that's one of the main points of the project it's very important to look at at the project not only for the the the scheme of rebuilding or or the the exploitation the but also to understand where is it the the building is located the impact that I can have in the in the neighborhoods in the local oper in the local providers small ones and we are looking a lot for that it's not an easy way it's not something that you have already uh um how can I say it's it's it's not something that you can find looking for Google and I'm going to to to to to search for for for a model of of of uh um network of relation with the local uh economy but that's something that for sure we must look at it's very important to to to be aware of the impact of that the new projects accommodation uh uh working uh work cafe wellness can have in the local in the local ecosystem and we we we it's that's not we are not telling that only because it's good to talk about uh uh a relation with local because we we we are doing that in in the vertical building it's something real it's not uh a sentence that we can say but I think that's the that's the point and and in that uh um one more time I I must talk about the local entities because they are the ones that can make this connection between the local uh residents and the the people that are making business and that's why it's very important again to be to be really near for the the the tour the city council the city programs the tourism branch I think that's that's the the the the main point of of the of the the the the words hospitality community and experience must be a true experience not something that we create because the cities already have the the the real experiences for for the the the the residents yeah that's a really good point you know you you go to Porto for what you can see in Porto and what you can eat in Porto not yeah for sure for it for sure um can we talk about tech now Nuno and what I'm thinking is in vertical hospitality you've got so many kind of touch points so many places where things could potentially go wrong you've also got different workflows of of what you know might happen either from the operational perspective or from the kind of the guessed um needs and perspectives and experience how how is the tech work for you and we don't need to talk about specific companies or anything but it must be pretty hard to find the right partners to help you do your job basically when you've got those those kind of all those different elements that are happening. Yeah Jessica first of all let me say that that in Feel group we have two three main vectors talent and people and it's always the first one even with the best tools processes we are crazy about processes because it's the only way to scale to another cities another countries it's very important. The hotels do that incredibly the the processes they are very good uh planning the processes and structuring them so we look for talent processes and then tools digital tools and and you you were talking about the challenge that we have it's huge because we are not only working with uh with the uh tools for accommodation for instance i can i can share with you guys uh we have uh uh the core the core tools we have uh uh uh pms the property management system that's all people in the sector uh know that we have also the OMS the office management system to to manage the the the flexible workspaces we have the TMS for transportation and we have also the the the tool to manage the experiences the boat trips the tours and uh so and and we we are only talking about the core runs not the access control the revenue management tools the guest experience tool the digital guides the everything so for us in the in the in the ideal world we we we dream to have uh one only one tool and why because if you have only one tool for sure you will have a a simple experience for your visitor for your customer i think that's the the most important about the the technology the automation is to have the the the the the best uh uh um journey for for the client and and the the best journey nowadays it's a simple one people don't want to have uh uh a lot of tools a lot of the uh access control so what we are doing now in field group and i can share that i can i can share that for with no problem we we work with this type of of uh core uh tools like pms or ms but we also have a central one uh a data warehouse that we it's our own tool it's a data warehouse where we collect all the data and where we integrate all these systems and and for us it's important because we are able in the future to decide what's better for us we we always will keep all the data and for us it's very important to have all the data that we can collect all the experience at this uh nowadays we we manage uh 60 000 clients per year in the different companies in the different uh offers of field groups so it's very important this this data because we can work in that and see the trends the things that the people want more the where they want to stay and uh um and and I think it's that we we we work a lot with digital tools we have uh uh uh uh I think a uh a good a good uh um ecosystem digital ecosystem was but we try not to be dependent on one tool and we try to keep that for us and that the future we are talking with about a a lot of a lot of uh uh providers if we were we are able to to to merge all the all the the the tools in one tool for a flexible building or a flexible offer uh it will be great yeah and I guess it's you you said about making it simpler for the guests but also simpler for your team for the talent as well which is um you know uh just as important this it's yeah it's really interesting just to see how it's kind of all working for you but having that one place where you've got all the data is really incredible because of course you can really learn from that can't you can really iterate and and learn what your your guests are are really doing and and and I guess you know how you can improve the business as you go along like a lot of people have data but it's so siloed isn't it so using tools business intelligence tools ai tools or whatever to kind of really understand your business. Let me say something sometimes it's not easy to decide what to do with the data.

SPEAKER_03 34:42

Sometimes we have so many data why just keep it and then decide do what you're doing keep it and then the answer will come but it needs to be we are always trying to have more I I I suppose uh one one question on that well actually two questions on that you know the one of the biggest topics at the last event we were at was all about AI uh in in this industry are you guys using any AI tools and if so what kind of AI are you using?

SPEAKER_00 35:09

And then secondly you know with the data that you're collecting I wonder on you know from an operator's perspective you know the guest and resident data do you use any of this to enhance the personalization uh for the service that you're providing them we are we are starting to use way ai we are not the the the best in class in that but I can we use the co-pilot uh to the to the meetings we we use the the the another for another things uh uh ai tools but we are not obsessed in that I think that we are still in the beginning and we we of course we use ai in our revenue management uh tool we use ai in the in our digital guides the the providers that are working or the partners that are working with us they are doing the also the the the path with ai so i think it's not um it's it's crucial to to be aware of the importance of the AI but it's now the focus on our investments for now I can I can I can tell you that and sorry christen the second one is the second one is you know you're talking about all the data and having too much data and collecting not knowing what to use it for but I wonder uh uh with the data that you're collecting on your guest or your residents do you use any of this data to enhance you know the personalization uh and the service across the different things that you provide yeah for many years we tried we tried with the data that we collect we tried to have uh a guest profile to make uh uh uh to prepare and uh uh the best uh check in that we can but nowadays more than that we are looking for that data uh in in the way of of the client uh the CRM the client relationship manager because we with the with a lot of companies it's very difficult to merge because we have different tools for and we have the leads can enter in different uh uh platforms and and it's very important to to collect the data because sometimes we we look at a customer that that uh stayed with Phil Porto two years ago and we don't know and he's doing now a boat trip and if you don't have the the the the if you don't collect the data and you don't uh uh uh share the data uh with the with uh all the companies the experience can be bad because we don't know we don't know we don't we don't really know the customer okay the customer passed to us in the two years ago but uh I'm not aware that's that is that she's or she or he is uh are are here again and and they are with Phil Group because they they they love what they experienced in the past. So I think it's very important for us the the data not only for the client also for the the investor because nowadays we are very sure of the the the the business plan that we make in in in each city in each country because we have a lot of data from to support that. I've got a final question for you Nuno you mentioned that you've got two or you're opening two um vesical hospitality buildings in Sao Paulo so you're going in another country you know on another continent we we are already in Sao Paulo for one and a half years but until now we have two buildings but only accommodation we we are not able to open a vertical building we are now making the rebuilding of uh uh uh a building near of Nidapalista that will have uh a co-working space so office uh flexible workspace and the and um and service department and uh event spaces uh so but because for us it's it's important for differentiation because if I'm only uh an operator that goes there and opens two five ten new accommodation buildings what's the difference between uh a field group and another international group operator accommodation it's not it's not that because we want to nowadays the the the the the core projects for us is the vertical buildings for sure and are they going like is it a is it how different is the experience of opening one in Brazil compared to Portugal like is it do they understand what you're doing? Are they how did they want it then like what are the sort of challenges we we look a lot for the market in the in the in the past three years and that's why we decided to go to Sao Paulo you only have in Europe one city uh similar of uh to Sao Paulo in in the the business way it's London it's the only one because Sao Paulo London they are incredible business city and and this type of project it's mostly it's it's it's it's more to corporate people okay we can have leisure people but it's more for for corporate business travel or even blazier ones because nowadays it's not it's not only leisure or business you have the blazer a lot of people that stays with us in this type of buildings want the blazer wants the the the the the central location but also the a space to to to have meetings to work and uh to be near the partners well I think that um I mean uh we got uh got through a lot of topics today but I guess uh one more question for you you know if people are interested in what you guys are doing any events or anything coming up that they should know about or where can they go? No we are we are looking to consolidate the the or to grow in the the two new locations lisbon and sao paulo are the the the our main strategies that because we are really well in Porto we manage 17 buildings three of them with uh vertical ones we have uh we we have the boats we have the the the the the private villas so in porto and also portugal we we are really consolidated but now we need to to grow in lisbon we will have a great and incredible project in Lisbon uh inside a a business hub with uh 100 apartments and co-working space in 2027 we we we um we won uh a uh um a big contest that's uh of the project international one and we are preparing that we are opening one or two more mid-sized buildings 20 30 apartments also in Lisbon and then in in sao we have a a business plan to have uh four or five buildings we are nowadays with two and we need uh two more for vertical one so I think now we must look to consolidate it's not uh in Lisbon it's easier but in Sao Paulo we have challenges uh not not only operational of commercial or commercial because we in that we are really good but the the culture and the the taxes are very different so it's not an easy country to Nuno you're a busy man so thank you so much for taking the time to come on pillow talk sessions it's been really interesting and you know the concept of vertical hospitality in a and a vertical hospitality building you know is is is great.

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